Links and resources

• Amplify Life – The digital platform that Hanna founded, offering customer-centric, permanent life insurance products focused on wealth accumulation.
• Trustpilot – An independent review site where customers rate their experience, used by Amplify to build consumer trust and social proof.

Interview Transcript

Shubha K. Chakravarthy: Hello Hanna. Welcome to Invisible Ink. We’re so excited to have you here.

Hanna Wu: Thank you. Thank you. Excited to be here.

Shubha K. Chakravarthy: Congrats on making it to the list of most likely to be unicorns. I was pretty excited to see that. So just to get us started off, can you tell us a little bit about what Amplify does?

Hanna Wu: Sure. Amplify life. We started about five years ago. We’re a digital life insurance platform focused on wealth accumulation. So we are really the first customer centric, permanent life insurance and wealth accumulation focused life insurance platform helping both end customers as well as financial institutions and really bridging the connectivity between wealth accumulation focused life insurance and the digital financial services space.

Shubha K. Chakravarthy: Great. I came from life insurance. So I can’t wait to dig in. So what sparked the initial idea? Like, where’d you get this from?

Hanna Wu: Yeah so, actually my background is deep in the life insurance space. Both of my parents were life insurance agents for 25 years. So they actually came from China back in the eighties. And they came here to start a new life. They ended up in life insurance and really have been building their book of business for the last 25 years.

And sort of through that process, really have seen a lot about what life insurance can do for people both in terms of, what are the options available but also what it is like on the backend. For example, how their families and their clients can really be able to benefit from the product whether it’s taking money out of their product as well as protecting their legacies as well as really protecting and changing the lives of beneficiaries. I have really seen a lot of personal examples of people that we knew as a family. And how this financial vehicle can really change lives.

But in addition to that, I started a financial planning agency back in 2014. We had multiple offices in the United States and really focused on high net worth life insurance as a part of that. And felt that whether it’s with businesses or high net worth individuals and families, there is a world of life insurance as a tax efficient wealth accumulation asset that exists. And that is not very common knowledge to the everyday consumer or not experienced as financial products and FinTech products are experienced today in regards to modern consumers and our expectations of how we manage and utilize and experience financial products. It’s really not the way that these products are offered or experienced and just not very accessible to the modern consumer.

Shubha K. Chakravarthy: So you answered brilliantly the question of why you, right? I get all about why you’re the right person but why now?

Hanna Wu: Great question. Really it’s a culmination of things. One, as we know today, there’s a wealth of technology and I think FinTech has really evolved over the years. You had the stockbroker back in the nineties and today, really you can access public markets at your fingertips.

And in addition to that, we are coming onto this massive wealth transition where you have young, mass affluent, customers who are about to really experience a big transition within the broader market around wealth. And so you have trillions of dollars that are going to be passed from previous generations over into, I would say the Gen X, the millennial generation.

In addition to that, I think the generations today, whether it’s millennials and beyond we’ve been through multiple market downturns. There’s a lot of uncertainty. There’s a transition from having defined benefits to defined contributions like having guaranteed pension plans back in the baby boomer generation to today. You really have to be building for your own future. And so all of this culmination of modern technology, wealth transfer and change in regards to how we’re thinking about our financial futures.

And then you have life insurance in really the way back of the line, right? The last domino of that. People don’t really understand this asset class. People don’t really know what are the benefits and how they can use it. It’s a very much of a black box in regards to what are the products within, how can I find the best product for myself and my family?

Yet it’s such a fundamental vehicle for the protection of society just on a broader level, it’s the cushion of society when you know, we’re going to have people who pass away. And in order for us not to be put in a state of very severe financial distress, you need insurance.

Insurance is such an important layer and life insurance is such an important layer for society. However, it has not kept up with modern technology in regards to how we experience it. It is still very much of a black box in regards to products and also the incentives around the life insurance industry are not very aligned in regards to taking care of that end customer.

What’s best for that end customer in regards to pricing? Transparency, in regards to options available, in regards to being able to connect into the financial vehicles that consumers use today and really bridge into how we manage our finances. It’s just not connected into where the opportunities are but also where the challenges are and it very much is such an important piece of that puzzle for the everyday American.

Early Steps and Market Validation

Shubha K. Chakravarthy: Makes sense. So now you have the idea, you see the technology and the industry part coming together. What are the first steps to you that were pivotal in convincing you that there’s a market there and that you could potentially succeed with this? Like what are those landmark moments?

Hanna Wu: It’s a great question. I would say,  you know, we really didn’t know what was going to work and what wasn’t going to work in the beginning. In the very beginning, I was this first, social media person. I was creating the ads myself, launching the ads myself, creating the messaging myself and our initial team, we just built a very basic, walkthrough with like three fundamental questions selling off-the-shelf products and just seeing, are people willing to purchase a more complex product digitally.

Is there market demand here? Instead of meeting with a life insurance agent over the kitchen table, running into them at the country club or however. Are people interested in this value proposition life insurance that instead of paying $20, $30 a month for 20 years and then betting that if something happens to you that you’re going to be protected during that time.

But if not, then you have no protection and you just wasted the money that you put in. Are people willing to put a little bit more to be protected for life and get more out of their insurance product, be able to access tax efficient funds, be able to protect their entire life guaranteed.

And is that a value prop that resonates with that end customer? And so that was the first thought process that we went out with, is this value prop going to resonate with end consumers? Because, you know, we didn’t have an optimized experience.

I mean, we were just starting out and customers had to jump through many hoops to get this policy right. Are they willing to trust a really unknown, small party and jump through many hoops and take weeks long or months long just to get a policy?

Is the product market fit sticky enough where customers are actually willing to do this in a very unoptimized experience? Because the value prop resonates with our end customers. And so that was what we wanted to initially prove out. And so we built this product. We built this initial platform.

We created social assets. We started on Facebook and we found that customers really are willing to go through this process with us. They were very patient. They were willing to wait weeks and go through a lot of underwriting back and forth just to be able to get this product.

And so that gave us confidence to think that, Hey, this is a financial product. This is a complex financial vehicle. But our customers today are willing to jump through all the unoptimized hoops that we have just have to get it right. And so, I think there was a lot of skepticism in the beginning around, are people willing to buy permanent life insurance, rather than be sold permanent life insurance?

And that’s what we wanted to prove out in the beginning and that’s what we found is that people are willing to buy this product. And maybe people don’t wake up in the mornings thinking I want to buy life insurance but you know, when certain things happen.  They hear about a really sad event or they have a life transition like they got married and have children.

Or anything happens. Then, one day something happens in their life and they do think about, okay, maybe I should take the step. And then they have to think about, Am I wanting to put, a smaller amount of money and get temporary protection? Or am I willing to put a little bit more and get permanent protection and more benefits?

And we found that there is a segment of customers who do wake up one day because of some events, and think, Hey, I need more protection and I want to protect my family. And this segment of customers wants to get more out of the money that they’re investing in putting in rather than less. And so that’s what we found.

Shubha K. Chakravarthy: That’s very interesting.  A couple of things there. One is I’m assuming you’re distribution and not a manufacturer. You’re still distributing other insurers products through your and so you’re essentially a distribution channel.

Hanna Wu: Yep.

Building a Unique Value Proposition

Shubha K. Chakravarthy: What did you find unique about you? What’s different about you? What’s your moat and why will people come to you versus tomorrow somebody else goes and creates the exact, now that you’ve cracked the path open, what’s your moat like, why would they not go to somebody else?

Hanna Wu: It’s a great question. I would say the pros and cons of building in a more complex space is that you are building more and more of a moat. I think it’s harder in some ways to get started and it’s harder in some ways to really get to a certain flywheel impact because the industry was really a blue ocean.

You have the traditional industry product manufacturers on one hand and then you have the end customers on the other hand and you have the rest. The distribution is almost primarily consisting of human driven agents, and so there’s really not a lot of technology, not a big technology ecosystem where for us, we can say we’re going to innovate in this one specific part and use the technology ecosystem to supplement our offerings, to create a really streamlined experience for our customers.

There was like nothing. Very little in regards to the technology ecosystem that can support us being able to focus on a really niche area. It was more like, okay, we had to innovate on the initial experience that from, the messaging that the customer received to connect with that value proposition over to the small walkthrough that we can give them and where they tell us what their intent is, what they’re looking for out of their life insurance, some basic field underwriting, some basic digital onboarding to then be able to, build around a digital application.

Digital application information and a digital application, to now having launched the full end-to-end quote to bind experience and be able to actually offer a proprietary product where they can be able to just onboard themselves completely and get a policy instantaneously at their own fingertips.

And so for us, every step of the way, we had to build a lot of things. A lot of things because there wasn’t a plug and play situation where we can use what was available in the ecosystem. We had to build more in order for us to offer that experience. So part of the experience was a bit manual.

Until we could slowly eat away at that experience and build that stack in order to truly create that experience that we want. And we’re still in that process, still building kind of that in enforce experience. Still building that full onboarding, optimizing that onboarding experience, that end-to-end experience.

Our vision is that you can be able to get a life insurance quote. You can apply. You can get a policy that’s best fit for you and then you can be able to interact with that policy and be able to generate health and wealth benefits from that policy as you should because your life insurance provider wants you to live a long and healthy and wealthy life. They want you to live a long and a healthy life more than probably any other institution out there. And so we want to bring all those benefits that are so synergistic with that customer’s, their own goals, their own personal goals as well.

And so that entire life cycle and experience we want to provide to the end customer. But  again, there’s not a lot of off the shelf capabilities that we can just plug in. So there’s a lot that we have to build out in this space. and so we started off just the sole player in the life insurance accumulation space. And because of that, we had to build almost every part of that journey and still continuing.

Shubha K. Chakravarthy: So that’s fascinating. Because what I’m hearing you say is one thing is you’re kind of growing with your customer because you are starting with the first step, which is, “Hey, give me a quote,” or, “And then let me apply,” all the way to, “Now I want to enjoy all the benefits of my policy,” which I get.

The other challenge is customer acquisition is pretty brutal in terms of life insurance because you don’t have that renewing annuity income that insurance agents gets, right? So there is the moat, but there’s also an ongoing challenge of you have to keep generating new customers all the time.

Which brings me to the question of: through that experimentation, through that process of building relationship with customers, was there one “aha” that you found out that helped you crack the code from it’s being, “I don’t trust some random person on the internet,” to, “Okay, I’m going to go with this provider because it’s a better value proposition than going and hunting down, like, a real life insurance agent,” for example?

Hanna Wu: Yes. Absolutely. I mean, I would say for us, a lot of our customers, they’ve really never been able to kind of open the doors fully. As I said, it’s really a black box in regards to life insurance products that are available. Whichever life insurance agent that you run into, you’re kind of at the backseat.

Whereas, you know, I think with the Amplify, our recommendation engine is very transparent. We want to provide the best fit for that customer.

And whether it’s a life insurance product that’s more oriented towards conservative savings, whether it’s more towards higher growth opportunity or maybe sometimes it is more just for a final expense or more for a temporary protection. So, we want to find out what are the goals of that customer first.

And because we have a recommendation engine that really provides that best fit, it’s less of a subjective, personal offering. And for us, I think we’re a trusted brand with our customers where we are 4.8 on Trustpilot.

We have a great investor base behind us. We work with A-plus rated partners. And so, I think for us, we are a much more sort of objective experience for that end customer. And they’re trusting us as an Amplify brand to really be with them throughout the long term of that relationship.

Rather than today, 90% of life insurance agents turn out of the business in the first three years. And so today, you bought a life insurance policy from this agent. He could have been in the business for a day, a week, a month, a year but 90% of the time, more often than not, he’s going to be out of the business in the next three years.

So, he has no accountability or longevity with this customer and with the life insurance company who now has this lifetime relationship with this customer. But with Amplify, our value prop is something different.

As I mentioned earlier, we want to be there for that customer, with that customer, and provide ongoing lifetime benefits for that customer. That’s really the end goal — what can life insurance do more for your life.

And so, I would say for us, that’s really the brand that we want to represent. You’re buying a life insurance policy from us today as a brand, as a platform that’s going to then have accountability and continue to bridge those benefits with that customer and maintain that lifelong relationship with that customer and engagement with that customer to be able to access a lot more.

And so, I think it’s a very different fundamental relationship between working with this agent and having a really transactional relationship versus working with a platform and a brand that’s going to continue that relationship for a long, long time.

Shubha K. Chakravarthy: So it sounds like you took that element of trust that has always existed, but in terms of, “Hey, I want to buy it from Allstate, or whoever the case might be,” and you extended to the last mile of getting that from the agent also.

And you flipped the process around by making it buyer-driven by saying, “Let me tell you what I want to buy,” versus, “Give me the two or three that you think.” I mean, it’s kind of like an almost paternalistic relationship where they tell you what they think is good for you versus you’re going to drive the bus and, “No, I’m the customer here. I’m paying.” So I love that.

I want to move on to another topic, which I know is a huge deal in insurance, having worked in it, which is: it’s very cyclical. It’s very cycle-driven in terms of pricing and all of that stuff. So how has that impacted you and how have you as a startup managed this whole product lifecycle and market cycle issue in the insurance business?

Hanna Wu: Yes. We’ve seen the cycles in regards to our relationship with our carrier partners but less so in our relationship with our customers, because in any market cycle, insurance is something that people want and need. And so we’ve seen that. What we’ve seen that is slightly different is the product mix is a little bit different for customers, depending on the market cycle.

So when the market is doing well, people tend to want higher growth investment options, and options around, you know I would say, upside potential, even in regards to their insurance products. And in down market cycles, then people tend to want to purchase products that have more of a downside protection. Naturally.

Whereas I would say, from a life insurance carrier’s perspective, typically their strategy changes pretty significantly depending on interest rate cycles. So when interest rates are up, then they tend to want to focus more on their core business. When interest rates are down, they tend to be more aggressive in expanding their book of business and expanding growth opportunities.

And so we see sort of more of a propensity for partnership with InsureTechs, with innovation, with broader distribution when interest rates are lower. When there’s a lean towards growth, like now for example. And versus, for us, just in terms of the partnership side, when interest rates are higher then you know, we’re working with partners in different areas of their book of business.

And so that’s what we’ve seen is that interest rates affect our partnership with life insurance carriers and with ecosystem carriers. But with our customers, really, they need life insurance. They need protection, and people, no matter what, need to think about their future of building wealth.

And for us, we are working today with, you know, mass affluent customers who are really looking to put a little bit more into their policies. And so, because of that value proposition, we tend to get folks who, no matter what are thinking about their financial future and who, no matter what want that protection. And so the difference is just what types of products they purchase, rather than whether or not they engage with our platform to purchase a product.

Shubha K. Chakravarthy: Got it. So the life insurance need never changes because that protection is always necessary. It’s just a question of what additional flavor or additional wrappers need to get on it and depends on kind of where we are in the market.

I’m just curious, you know, do the prevalence of meme stocks and how the market is doing, does that really impact your customer’s attitude in terms of what they want or how much returns they want to see from this kind of product versus what they could get, quote unquote “playing the market” which I hate but it happens.

Hanna Wu: Yes. I think it’s a slightly different category that people are thinking about. They’re more thinking about this in the category of, what can I get out of the money that I’m putting in towards protection or we have a decently sized segment of our customers who are small business owners and who are just looking for a vehicle that can do multiple things for them, supplement their retirement income, be able to access in the event of a health emergency, and also protect their families.

So those types of customers, they need this financial vehicle anyways. They’re just really looking for maybe somewhat greater upside potential and somewhat more of a downside protection.

Shubha K. Chakravarthy: So you’re not really competing with what’s happening in the market. You know, they’re looking at you completely in the long-term plan bucket from all these vagaries of what’s happening in the stock markets or what have you.

Hanna Wu: Yes, exactly.

Shubha K. Chakravarthy: Then from a carrier perspective, do you have to do anything differently from a product strategy perspective just to insulate yourself from all of these cycles and how carriers may blow hot or blow cold depending on which part of the cycle you’re now in. Does that make sense?

Hanna Wu: Yes, definitely. I would say for us, our carrier strategy is really building a proprietary product suite with carriers where we can be able to build a custom experience for our customers and various distribution channels that we operate in. So, for example, we have our consumer segment, and now we’re working with FinTech platforms and digital financial services to connect with their customers.

And so we want to build sort of custom experiences and custom products with these carrier partners that are really focused on that customer segment and how they wish to interact with these financial vehicles. What are they looking for, and what’s going to be the best product selection for them? It’s a partnership that is more long term with each of these partners that we’re building with.

And so it’s not so susceptible to market fluctuations. Because one of the things that Amplify has done is we’ve proven that our customer segment is a really high-quality customer segment.

So, you know, we just launched a product recently in December of last year, which is doing amazing, and we’re seeing 94% in approval rates. And so we’re just really showing, demonstrating that our customers are a great, high-quality demographic and group for our life insurance carriers. And so regardless, it is a really good sort of risk class and demographic.

And so we want to be able to work with partners that can work with us in the right way to provide that great experience and that great product for our customers at the end of the day. So the fortunate thing is that we have a lot of partners that are willing to work with us on the carrier side because we’ve demonstrated that we’ve been able to engage.

And you asked a question around moat and what’s unique and different about Amplify and I think that’s a huge part of it. I mean, I was having a conversation with a carrier the other day, and ultimately, the skepticism for a long time has been: can you sell permanent life insurance products to customers?

And we’ve, you know, I think at our scale today, we’ve been able to prove that Amplify has cracked the code of being able to engage with that customer and be able to translate that value proposition and capture that quality risk that is really underserved by the traditional industry but of the highest quality risk that the industry wants to connect to.

Shubha K. Chakravarthy: So it sounds like you’re almost positioning yourself as a strategic partner with carriers as opposed to, Hey, you know, I’m here distributing your products by aligning yourselves with kind of like the customer segments they want to go after, the quality of customers they want to go after.

So they’re more predisposed to see you as they’re here for the long term. We’ll do that little extra to work with them to figure out what right products that makes sense for them and so on and so forth. Is that correct?

Hanna Wu: Hundred percent exactly, because today they have traditional distribution channels, and these life insurance carriers, they really have to compete on price with these traditional distribution channels. Because imagine the ecosystem today is these large IMOs (Independent Marketing Organizations).  They’re aggregators; they have purchased, private equity-backed, a lot of these smaller life insurance shops.

And so now they can be able to negotiate greater contract rates with these life insurance carriers. And so these life insurance carriers really have to be competing on price in order for their product to be on the shelf and be able to be distributed through these large aggregators. Whereas with Amplify, we are a very different value proposition. Instead of these life insurance carriers having to pay these super heaped compensation structures to compete within these large IMO categories in order for their agents—who again are more transactional, because 90% churn out after.

And so, you know, they really have to pay more to engage, to capture the Asian demographic and try to retain them because it’s such a high-turn Asian industry. Whereas with Amplify, we’re long-term with that customer. And so, you know, we don’t necessarily need that. We don’t necessarily need to be able to, I would say, take commissions in that way. Our goal is to take long-tail revenue with the carrier, with the customer, lowering the fees, lowering the upfront load for the carrier, and lowering the load for the end consumer as well.

Ultimately, that’s our goal.  Ultimately, it is to align incentives and be there long-term with that customer, in aligning incentives between the carrier and the customer. And Amplify as the platform, in order to really help that end customer build wealth – and have not just a great experience, but also have a great product.

And we’re also capturing just a very different segment of the market than the traditional industry is capturing. Again, with a more sort of human-driven incentive to move up-market, older demographics. We’re capturing younger demographics, modern customers who are early in their journey in building wealth.

And so that’s kind of the direction. So, strategically, carriers who want to capture that younger, more mass affluent customer, they’re not really getting a lot of that demographic as much from traditional channels. And so, strategically, this is a new sort of market and demographic for them.

Fundraising in Different Market Conditions

Shubha K. Chakravarthy: So by removing that cost of the agent churn, you’ve kind of hit a positive spiral because it impacts you, it impacts the customer, and it impacts the carrier. I love it. So I want to ask, turn into a different aspect of the market cycle, which is a fundraising cycle. I was part of doing my research. I think you’ve raised about $45 million so far.

Hanna Wu: Yes, that’s correct.

Shubha K. Chakravarthy: But you’ve raised in very different fundraising markets. I was just looking at it – you raised- I think you raised about $15 million pre Silicon Valley and about $30 million post Silicon Valley Bank crash. Can you just kind of do a contrast and compare between what was it like to raise pre SVB crash and post SVB crash

Hanna Wu: Yes. I would say the SVB crash was not my favorite weekend.

Shubha K. Chakravarthy: Understatement of the year? Okay.

Hanna Wu: Yes, it was a very exciting weekend, to say the very least. But, you know, I would say that, at the end of the day, it’s the SVB crash — it’s kind of just like one event in regards to sort of the market dynamics and shift overall. I definitely agree. I think the shift from 2021 companies, folks who’ve raised — including myself and others who’ve raised in 2021 — versus every year has been quite different from, you know, 2022. Folks had thought that maybe the markets would come back a little bit earlier. And now, you know, it’s 2025. There’s still some degree of uncertainty in the market.

And so, you know, I do think that just kind of looking back, they’re very different experiences but we were fortunate in our timeframe and also the way that we approached each fundraise. We didn’t raise at crazy valuations. We were sort of more pragmatic in regards to what we raised and how we raised. And I would also say that we, InsureTech, had seen some challenges pretty early on in the markets.

We were able to see those leading indicators shift in the market around InsureTech companies. So, for example, the Lemonades and the Roots and the Hippos of the world — they had an impact before the rest of the market had an impact.

And so, because of that, we shifted our strategy a bit from launching products that needed hyper-growth and more capital and really heavily investing in growth and expansion of the company, to products that were able to be more economical for the company. And be able to help us with more of, like, a better cash flow profile and also be more conservative in how we’re utilizing capital.

And so I think for us, those are the two things that had helped us — that we were able to recognize those leading indicators, make that shift really early in our strategy, and also really just raise at reasonable valuations so that we can head into the next capital raises without seeing as much headwinds, even though there were still headwinds. But I think those two things had really helped us.

I mean, we’ve seen companies who raised at crazy valuations. Invested tons of capital into expansion, and some of them were too late to make that pivot. Because really, it’s a really hard pivot. And so not dragging your feet around doing it — and the uncertainty around doing it, and the uncertainty around the impacts of taking those changes and those shifts — it’s something very understandable for startups.

I mean, you’re having to shift your strategy. You’re having to shift your personnel. You’re having to make major changes to your business. And folks who are not doing it immediately because of fear of the negative impacts within the company, the culture, the inside just like the repercussions inside the company. It’s very understandable for folks to not make that shift right away. But that also costs them ultimately on the backend.

And so we’ve seen a lot of folks kind of suffer from that, and also having to get back to their like, crazy high valuations especially the later the stage of the company. So we’ve definitely seen some of those challenges in the ecosystem and had to go through some of those talent challenges ourselves as well.

Shubha K. Chakravarthy: So, you mentioned one thing which is, if I understood you correctly, I think what you mentioned was, you had an option to invest whatever money raised in expansion versus what I’ll call core operational capabilities. So for example, maybe it’s building out from core to application, from application to whatever the next step is. So that was one big decision that I heard you made that helped you tied over this new normal.

Hanna Wu: Exactly, exactly. So we just chose to invest in partnerships and products that were more conducive towards our cashflow economics that helped us.

Pivoting Product Strategies for Stability

Shubha K. Chakravarthy: And were there any tactical examples you can give us in terms of what that pivot looked like around the time and you knew you had to go to a next race and the world looks very different? I’m just trying to get a sense of like, what does that look like in real life? What kind of decisions did you change? What kind of strategy shifts did you make?

Hanna Wu: Yeah, I would say, one of the products that well, I guess maybe two, two examples. One is we were looking to launch a product that had more upside potential, so more sort of equity-based product, to market. And we had originally invested in the strategy and the launch of that product but we shifted to a more conservative product that had more downside protection. But also was a better sort of partnership and economic profile for our company. So originally we were saying, okay, let’s launch a product that was equity-based, high growth, and we’re going to be more sort of backended in our cash flow profile.

And then we shifted more into a product to launch a product that has more downside protection, and also has a better cash flow profile for our company. And in addition to that, we had thought about at one point in time, you know, to take part in that balance sheet risk. And definitely, I think as we saw those initial impacts you know, we definitely went that capital-light way right direction, and saying, hey, we are not a carrier. We do not have any sort of desire or plans to be a balance sheet provider.

And ultimately, our value prop is to focus on that experience and that customer engagement, and work with ecosystem partners so that we can invest our resources for that distribution engagement and providing access to a net new market of customers. And really, the market kind of really shifted us even more in that right direction.

Shubha K. Chakravarthy: Got it. I love it because the themes I’m hearing were, now you go from like a very capital rich risk on environment or risk off environment. So the number one change I heard was to a more capital efficient strategies because you don’t need to wait as much for the cash to come in. You’re going into product set number one.

And then number two, I assume also that the demand is less variable so that you have more certainty around getting that demand so you can be more sure of the revenue, projections that you make and the revenue forecasts.

And the third piece is definitely around again, capital efficiency in terms of not putting your balance sheet at risk. It’s always that temptation. So everything points towards capital efficiency and profitability. In terms of leaner markets.

So what lessons would you offer to someone, say who’s earlier in your own process, what lessons learned and what would you suggest on the fundraising aspects today?

Hanna Wu: Yeah, absolutely. I would say to always have a finger on both. Because I do understand that in a market which I don’t suspect that we will be seeing anytime soon and that’s going to be like growth at all costs.  But in that environment, it is kind of hard to compete with companies that are hyper-growth and expanding and just really putting their capital towards hyper-growth.

Because at the end of the day, it’s relative. You’re being compared on an investment basis, relative to what other companies are really executing upon. And so in that hyper-growth scenario, it’s hard to say, “I’m going to be capital efficient,” because you’re compared relative to other companies. But at the same time, I think it’s always important to be able to have those levers. If the market does shift, what are you going to do?

What is the strategy? What can you do? And also be able to do it very quickly and to recognize the signs and always have your hand on the pulse to be able to see those leading indicators and not be afraid to make drastic changes and make sure that those drastic changes are going to be executed well.

I think that makes all the difference when the markets shift. Because no matter what—whether it’s in a capital-constrained environment or a capital-rich environment—you always have to be able to know if the market does shift. You’ll always be compared on a relative basis. And the companies who can move quickly and execute the best in that shift are the companies that are going to be able to survive in the long run and do well and thrive in the long run.

Because imagine a company that becomes public and you’re on this 10-, 15-plus year journey, and the market cycles that you’re going to see, you’re going to see quite a few market cycles guaranteed in that timeframe, right? And so, the companies who can get there are the ones who can handle those market cycles, and be able to recognize leading indicators, make rapid shifts, and handle that execution well.

Shubha K. Chakravarthy: I don’t think the zero interest rate environment’s ever going to come back at least not to the extent that we saw in 2020 and 2021. So what is the lesson here?

Like, you have to be agile, and you have to be able to flip between switching on the growth or switching or going hard on profitability and capital efficiency. So is there like a no-regret strategy or a no-regret path that a startup or a company can take to be able to make the most of either of these very different environments and still be able to thrive?

Hanna Wu: It wouldn’t be a line that you can always walk. It really is about the flexibility. It’s about walking a line that’s more towards expansion at the right times and also more conservative when capital is more deficient in the market.

So it’s never like a straight line, like an end-all, be-all. This is like the strategy that’s going to win in every market cycle. I frankly don’t think that line exists. But it is about the speed at which you can make the shifts and also the execution in making those shifts.

I think that’s really where the key lies, because it’s all about time, right? How you’re using your capital and your resources, and the faster that you make those shifts, the more your resources can be spent in executing towards a certain direction, and the more sort of impactful that will be at the time compared, again, relative to your cohort of other companies.

So the faster people can make that shift and the better they can do it and do it well, then relative to that cohort at the time that you’re going to be evaluated, you will kind of be the winner in that.

Shubha K. Chakravarthy: So from a tactical perspective, if you had to name maybe two or three building blocks of that agility, of that ability to turn on a dime on a day-to-day operating basis, what do those building blocks look like from the inside?

Hanna Wu: Yes. One, I would say, having the right scenarios. So, for example, running multiple different scenarios and really knowing, okay, if we were going to expand, this is what we would do? And this is the forecast that would look like. If we had to really pull back, then this is what the forecast would look like.

And inherent in that forecast is the execution. Like, this is the team that we would have to hire, or this is the lever that we would have to pull if the markets turn. And this is exactly how that execution plan would have to play out. So I think having the forecast, the scenarios within the various different forecasts. But then, again, inherent in that forecast are the details of the execution for every plan.

Building and Retaining a Strong Team

Shubha K. Chakravarthy: So, for example, when you talk about execution, I assume you’re meaning what does the team configuration look like? What does team strength look like? What does a product portfolio look like?

Hanna Wu: Exactly.

Shubha K. Chakravarthy: What market spend are we talking about? Which markets are we going to focus on? How much are we going to focus on them? Are we talking about those kinds of things in terms of

Hanna Wu: Exactly.

Shubha K. Chakravarthy: So, I want to move, to talking about team.

I do want to move to team building. You’ve grown really fast in a short window of time. So, what has been that experience? What have been your biggest challenges and learnings in terms of building your team in such a fast-growth environment?

Hanna Wu: Actually, yes. I would say, as we’re coming up into our fifth year of the company, one of the things that I recognize is that essentially having great people, like hiring for great people, but also retaining great people, are so fundamental and crucial. It’s compound interest. The team that you take on, first of all, hiring A players. Your players, they continue to compound interest. It’s actually quite amazing to see because it’s the individuals that compound interest but it’s also the team that compounds interest and the culture of the company that compounds when you’re able to retain great people.

Some of our folks have been around for their third, fourth year at Amplify and it’s just amazing to see the amount that people can be really able to offer from a strategic perspective from an input perspective. All of that you can see really compound as folks are in the business longer because they understand the business so well.

They understand the levers so well and you really can be able to build the best strategic roadmap and how they bring other people on and how they’re able to provide the right context to new people in the company. All of that compounds as you have great people who stick around a really long time. But, you know, on the other side, it really is about: can we be able to hire A players? Can we be able to retain A players?

But also, I think the other side of it is they say, you know, hire slow and fire fast. But also, if there are folks who are not the right players in your team. Recognizing that early so you make room and make space to be able to hire A players. Like, it’s okay to you know, I think it’s really important to really recognize and be transparent about what you’re looking for, your company’s culture and be clear on your company’s direction.

So you’re taking the right people on. You’re taking A players. You’re taking the right culture fit, you’re taking all of that on and recognizing if that’s not the case early on. But if they are, then hold onto them for dear life. It’s really making sure that those people at the end of the day, it’s making sure that our company, our roadmap, our progress — it’s all based on the people who are there. These are your company. At the end of the day, it’s distilled to the people who are there and the people who are going to build this company with you. And so, having the right people and then holding onto them for dear life, because that’s really going to make or break the company.

Shubha K. Chakravarthy: So, and I take your point. Everybody says hire the A players. And that sounds great in theory but you know how it is for a startup. So, I’m looking for a little bit more granularity for those of our founders who may not be there yet.

How do you define an A player? Where do you find them? How do you convince them to get on the ride? Because you’re still a startup that might die tomorrow. You think it’s going to take over the world but you know, there is inherent risk. So, I’m just curious in terms of some granular examples of how that plays out in real life and how you can improve your chances of hiring, finding, and hiring those A players.

Hanna Wu: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I would say, first and foremost is having folks who really align with your vision. If your vision is to make a huge impact. I think being able to recognize the people who want to do something that is large. That they’re not really just kind of looking to have a job. Looking to contribute in their role. They’re really looking to take ownership of making a really big impact. And I think that’s kind of a unique persona, where someone is wanting to take some level of risk, and be able to do something bigger.

I think that’s something that we really want to look for when we’re hiring people is they’re not here for just a year, two, three years. When we look at people’s profiles and, you know, we hire for our executive team or talent, one of the things we really look at is, do they really have tenure at companies that they’re working for? But also, why are they joining Amplify and why do they want to choose this opportunity?

Also, I would say, what are they here for? Are they here to maximize what they’re going to get in the next two years? Or are they really here to have this be a life-changing experience and a life-changing outcome for them? And so I think there’s definitely a persona there. And you want people who are, who do demonstrate that they have tenure, that they’re here to make a bigger impact, that they understand that they’re going to be here.

Do you believe that this person will be here if times get tough?  Because they will get tough. Every company will have really hard times. And then from there also, I think every founder is a little bit different. But the way that we tend to work at Amplify is we’re very collaborative. We’re very much of a team. So, meaning that I’m the CEO of the company, but the CEO is a job.

Everybody has a very important job. I think the CEO’s job is really important, but each member of the team’s job is also very important. Everybody has a job to do in building this company together. And so, I think having that collaboration versus a very kind of hierarchical structure has really worked well for us. We want to have equal amount or at least feel a sense of, this ownership towards what we’re doing.

And I think, and that’s the ownership is not just in regards to ownership of the responsibilities, ownership of the outcome, ownership of the decision-making. All of that is we want folks to feel like, okay, we’re able to provide input and change the strategic direction of the company. We’re able to provide value and make an impact on where this company goes. And I think that’s we want to see that people want to contribute in that way. And that’s how we also retain the right people, because they do have that input that can impact the strategy of the company.

Shubha K. Chakravarthy: So early on, where did you source these early employees and how did you convince, like what was the one thing that you think successfully brought them over to say, yeah I want to be part of this? Just high level.

Hanna Wu: Yeah. It’s interesting. Because how do we convince folks to go into insurance? People always say that insurance finds you, right? And you never go looking for insurance. But you know, it’s a huge industry, and it’s an important one. And I think that for some of the folks we found through our personal networks.

Some of the folks were referred by firms. Recruiting firms. But you know, I would say we definitely have seen a number of the best, of course, is folks who have been referred by other folks and have just great remarks to share about them. What’s worked for us as well is references. I think having references, as many references as you can get, around folks—I think it’s really definitive.

You can get a really good sense of how this person operates through having a lot of references. But for us, we always want to be able to ask, like, who is the best person, right, that can do this job? And can you introduce us? And really asking within your personal networks. Because we’ve definitely seen that referrals typically are great because they’ve already been vouched. There’s a layer there, a trust.

Managing Investor Relationships

Shubha K. Chakravarthy: Great. The last topic I want to talk to you about is one that I think many founders would want to be in which is managing investor relationships once you’ve gotten the funding. Now that you’ve gotten the funding, you’ve got these so you’ve raised a lot of rounds. How has the process of managing investors evolved from your first—I think it was a $500,000 pre-seed round that you raised in 2020 all the way to your $20 million Series B in 2024? Can you just walk us through what has that investor relationship management process been like through those years and those rounds?

Hanna Wu: Yeah, absolutely. I would say starting out with the angel round, I love the angel round. I think it should not be skipped. Even if you have an option. And the reason for that is because at least for us, what we’ve seen is that our angels are like your phone-a-friend, right? Your flat-tire people. So they’re the group of people where it’s like, there are no dumb questions.

And trust me, I had many dumb questions throughout the journey. And so just having that group of angels that can just support you, and there’s really no consequence in asking them the questions that maybe you feel like are dumb questions. And that has been tremendously helpful throughout the process. Just like advice, feedback, how to tackle a certain scenario. So that angel investment group—I think having the right angels on board is tremendously helpful and can actually pay even greater dividends than some sort of even other institutional investors at times.

But of course, having institutional investors I would say having the right people who are very founder-friendly. I think that’s a really huge aspect. And again, references around those. Are these people founder-friendly? Do they have a great reputation? Oftentimes, if they have a great reputation, been around for a really long time, it’s because they’re founder-friendly. Because it’s a small, small world.

And I would say managing investor relations in the beginning—you know, when we were very small—I didn’t come from technology. So there was a lot, a big learning curve for me. And so having the right folks around the table to really provide that guidance was incredibly helpful and incredibly valuable. And really leveraging your investors to help you evaluate hires in your team. Help you, give you feedback because they see many data points.

And you just see your company and to give you feedback around what could the next couple steps look like in regards to expectations, milestones that you have to hit. Those types of things. And also just like market dynamics. And to give you feedback because your head’s down in your own company and to give you feedback on that.

But in addition to that, I would say one important aspect is that you are the one inside of your company day in and day out. So you, at the end of the day, know what’s best for your company. So to also be really confident in that direction. So all the data points that you get externally with your investors, and also just with the environment and the market in general, those are data points that you should take seriously but they do not define the right decision for you. And so having confidence in what’s best for your company but being able to gather as many of the data points as you can to make sure you’re making the right decision is a balance to strike.

And in addition to that, I would say managing your stakeholders and it’s something that every founder continues to work on. Myself included. But managing your stakeholders, making sure that they are informed, that you’re addressing their concerns, and that they really have a good grasp of your company.

At the end of the day, you have to be the best proponent of your company and make sure that everybody understands the vision is behind you, is supporting you, and is sort of aligned with your strategy. It’s your job to choose the right strategy but also convince everybody that’s the right strategy so everybody’s behind you and not creating additional headwinds towards that. And so it’s really taking control. I think that’s it taking control, but also taking all of the feedback into account.

Shubha K. Chakravarthy: So that’s I mean, that’s a tough job. It’s a long learning curve as you yourself mentioned. So does that happen? I’m trying to get a sense of what that looks like in terms of everyday life. So obviously you have your board meeting. So you have to do a good job managing your board and all of that good stuff. What are the other non-obvious things that you think founders miss in that process of managing stakeholders that you think can make them more effective?

Hanna Wu: I would say, having frequent check-ins, but not overwhelmingly so, with your board members. Because at the end of the day, they have a big portfolio. And for you to be top of mind, you have to have a lot of face time with your investors, and they have to know what’s happening in the company.

Having frequent updates, in written format to your investors as well and to your board members and your stakeholders, just to keep them apprised of what’s happening in the company. That’s probably the most helpful. We have monthly updates in written format. I would say, meet with our investors at least once a month, just to both get a pulse of the market, get feedback, but also share what’s happening. It’s definitely a really core part of the job is to keep your stakeholders informed, but also make sure that you are keeping that pulse on the market.

Final Thoughts and Advice for Founders

Shubha K. Chakravarthy: Got it. And then, anything that you wish you had done differently or you wish you had known before you started this fundraising journey that would help other founders?

Hanna Wu: I would say many, many things.

Shubha K. Chakravarthy: Top three.

Hanna Wu: One thing that I would say is on a personal level. To have a good plan. I started the company, kicked off our platform in early 2020. And at that time, I didn’t have any kids. I was recently married. And we were just excited,  We were just excited to be building.

It was like all hopes and dreams. But, you know, as time went on, of course I had two children. I think I was pregnant for 90 plus percent of my fundraising. And so I think being able to manage your personal life is a really big part of that. Making sure that you have the support that you need during all times.

There’s going to be times that are really stressful. There’s going to be times that are really difficult, that you have to work a lot. And you have to have a partner and you have to have a team behind you on a personal level that’s really going to support you through that. And you really have to know what you need.

I need a walk every day. I need some fresh air. I can try to be productive, but I also need some time to think about strategy. And also need some time for my kids. And just making sure that you kind of protect the times that you need to be a better you, but also be able to put that team in place.

Have a partner who really supports you, have family who really supports you and is aligned with preparing what’s coming up next. Like, I will try to prepare our family: “Okay, Mom is going to go out and fundraise during this period of time, potentially.” And so, you know, we have to be okay with like no vacations during that time, with extra support.

We’re going to outsource life. Like cooking, cleaning, all these different things. So just making sure that you’re prepared on a personal level, because otherwise it’s like double whammy. And it puts other things at risk for you.

Shubha K. Chakravarthy: Got it. Anything else that you think would be helpful for founders to know?

Hanna Wu: You know, I would just say just be prepared. Be prepared for the journey ahead. It could be a long one, so really just make sure that you’re thinking of it as a marathon. And sometimes when things are really difficult, just also know that everybody else is in the same boat.

And you have founders’ networks, communities that you can reach out to and use. Use your community. Use your ecosystem. And just know that you’re not alone in a boat. Sometimes it may seem that way but you’re not. And everybody will go through it. And every company, every huge company, every mess of a success story goes through really difficult times.

And at the end of the day, if it’s not over, you still have a chance to be able to continue forward and make that a crucial part of your journey and a chapter, a really exciting chapter in the history of your company.

Shubha K. Chakravarthy: Awesome. So you’ve covered a lot and it’s been super helpful for me — and for many founders, I’m sure. But is there anything that you think I should have asked you but I didn’t?

Hanna Wu: I think you’ve asked it all.

Shubha K. Chakravarthy: Fantastic. Thank you so much. This has been an amazing conversation. I really appreciate you taking the time and I’m going to be waiting to see you hit that unicorn list sooner than later. So thank you so much, Hanna. We really appreciate it.

Hanna Wu: Thank you for the time. It was a pleasure.