Vanessa has over 23 years of experience and a proven track record of value creation as a serial founder, operator, strategist and investor across SAP, Trigger Media and McKinsey. She is the Co-Founder and CEO of Sugarwork, a B2B SaaS company facilitating flexible, part-time arrangements for experienced employees and empowering employers to maintain the knowledge, skills, and relationships that drive their businesses.
She was most recently Vice President of SAP.iO, SAP’s early-stage venture arm, where she oversaw SAP.iO’s North American Foundries in New York and San Francisco, including programs devoted to women and diverse-led B2B enterprise tech companies, and recruited and accelerated 85+ enterprise software startups.
Prior to SAP, Vanessa was Chief Operating Officer at Trigger Media Group, a $22MM digital media incubator. She co-founded Trigger’s portfolio companies: InsideHook (digital media company & men’s lifestyle brand) and Fevo (SaaS technology for group experiences at live events). She began her career at McKinsey & Company and was an Associate Partner in the Firm’s Media and Entertainment Practice, based in Amsterdam, London and New York.
Vanessa currently serves as a Non-Executive director of Appen Ltd. (ASX: APX) and Goodman (ASX: GMG). She is also a board observer of Fevo and is an advisor or investor in start-ups including Bounce Exchange (Wunderkind), Crave Global, Grata Data, GroundSignal, Kable AI and Narrativ.
Vanessa graduated magna cum laude with an AB in psychology from Harvard University and cum laude with a JD from Harvard Law School. She was a Fulbright Scholar at Universiteit Utrecht in the Netherlands where she conducted independent research on the International War Crimes Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia and the International Court of Justice. She serves as Past President Director of the Harvard Alumni Association (was President from July 2021 – June 2022).
What’s the one startup lesson that never changes no matter what your specific startup situation is?
How do you flesh out and test a B2B idea before spending a single dollar on building it?
What’s the surprising test to tell if you’ve priced your offering not too high, not too low, but just right?
In this episode, Vanessa Liu, Co-Founder and CEO of Sugarwork, talks about the biggest lessons she learned building and helping startups from the Netherlands to the United States, the one thing that’s critical for every startup to do, her go-to techniques to test every aspect of her product, how to get pricing right, and much more
Links and Resources
Sugarwork: The flexible work platform that Vanessa founded
Vanessa Liu: Thank you so much for having me, Shubha!
Vanessa Liu: Maybe I should just preface it by saying why I went to McKinsey in the first place. I was an aspiring astronaut for many years until I was almost about to graduate out of college, and it was only during my senior year that I realized, “Wait a second, I might be working on something very small for about 10 years on the research side and not be able to have the impact that I wanted.”
So, I started meandering. I came to business because I realized that there are so many instances of economic development and work that you can do to spur on economies and also to create jobs. That is how I came into McKinsey and the technology side was what I fell into during my third project. I was asked to work on creating a free internet service provider back in the day when that was a thing, and I was doing that for the Dutch market.
So, I was there crafting the business plan and trying to figure out what that could look like for the Dutch market and then when the client said, “Could you just go and build this for us?”
I started working with web designers and engineers so that we can get this off the ground. In eight months, we were able to launch the fourth largest free ISP(internet service provider) in the Dutch market, which was exhilarating. It was really exhilarating. That gave me my first taste in terms of what it is like to start a company.
So, I started doing that again and again. I stayed at McKinsey for 10 years, much longer than anticipated because I was getting this type of work with our clients, and it became almost like a drug that I just kept on going back to.
That was my time at McKinsey and my time since McKinsey has also been very similar, actually.
Vanessa Liu: I think so much of business building is just being able to get something tested out there and in front of customers. I think so much of the time, and I think corporates in general, are just nervous about putting something out there that it might not yet be fully baked. That is what I learned.
You just have to sometimes get something out there and it is okay in the beginning if you just have enough there so that your customers can touch it, work with it, and can see if it is something good. That was a very critical learning that I had. So, that was number one.
I think number two, in addition to bias towards action, being able to then try to get something out there with a small team especially when you think about innovation in a large company, there is so much of a desire to have everybody have a stake in it and to be able to have a say. I think that is the beauty of starting things that are new. If you are nimble, if you have a small team, you can get going all that much faster.
So, that is something that is a takeaway that I’ve always leaned upon companies to say, “Look, if you are trying to innovate from the inside, don’t choke it by having a committee because if you have a committee you can kill things. Try to give things enough of a runway so that they can try and see if they can surface and to build something very quickly and to have milestones so that you can get them to launch.”
Vanessa Liu: A venture studio is almost like a hybrid founder plus venture fund. My business partner and I raised $22 million to start our own businesses that were primarily in the media space.
When we went in, which was in 2011, my business partner had at that time co-founded several email newsletter businesses or had invested in ones and grew them to scale.
So, one of them was a company called Daily Secret, which back in the day, for women like us, was like a great email that you got into your inbox which would tell you what to do, where to go, and what to buy. Then Thrillist was another company that was launched on the back of it, but that was for men of a similar demographic in terms of age and then Tasting Table around food, and then Pure Wow for the older female demographic.
So, when we went in, we had a thesis. We had a playbook of “How do you launch these companies?” We were going to go in and launch several of these companies for different demographics that had been overlooked. We knew that for each type of business, if you put in basically two to two and a half million dollars of funding, you can get something off the ground. So that was what we were charged with doing.
We started our first business called Inside Hook and got that off the ground. But then very quickly in 2012 and 2013, the media landscape had changed drastically. So, we thought, “What we need to do is to start thinking about the second business”, which we were building already at the time, which was around helping millennials get together.
We just thought we have to go away from the email newsletter businesses because they were already getting disintermediated by social media.
So, our second business became essentially a way for millennials to get together and we were taking over nightlife venues during their off hours. That was the nature of our business because we thought that is remnant inventory that clubs aren’t using. Very quickly people on the sales side of the Yankees who were getting invitations to these events that their friends were hosting using our platform said, “Did you ever think about using your platform to sell group tickets on the live events side?”
We had already been thinking about this but that was the call that we were waiting for. I was CEO of the business at the time, I pivoted the business to that area as to what it is today. It is a series C venture backed company all around powering the group ticketing for a lot of live events, businesses, and about 85% of our sports teams in North America.
Vanessa Liu: So, this is SAP’s early stage accelerators, and towards the end of my time, after six years of being a founder and being very tired getting these businesses off the ground and getting them to a specific scale, I decided that I wanted to have more purpose in the work that I was doing.
I had already seen first-hand that many people of color and many women were just getting left out of the funding equation. The reason why I knew this was because many of them were coming to me asking for funding. Even though that was not really the model that we had, we were not a venture firm that was handing out money.
We were starting our own ideas, but I was giving a lot of advice to these founders and essentially, at SAP, I was about to start my own fund to back women and people of color and to help them with their businesses.
When I got connected to SAP and it turned out that they were trying to do the same. They had a mandate to work with women and diverse founders, and so they asked me to run it. So, that was what I wanted to do.
They wanted me to start accelerators to find founders that were from Series C and to bring them into the SAP ecosystem. That was what I did across North America. I was running Techstars like cohorts, and I ended up running 12 of them over three and a half years and accelerating a portfolio of 87 companies, 80% of which were founded by women and people of color.
Vanessa Liu: I think as an emerging manager, if you are a first time fund manager, it is more about, “How do you find the people who can back you for it?” I was starting to talk to potential backers when the SAP opportunity came and at least for me, the way I was thinking about it was that I wanted to have a significant platform where I could make a difference.
I felt like with a company like SAP, a north of a hundred billion market cap company that is one of the behemoths in the enterprise software landscape, that would be a way where I can do that and I can also then hone the relationships I would have so that down the road if I wanted to go and start a fund that I would be able to get that. That was what I was thinking.
What has been great is that there have been so many funds started in the last few years from emerging managers, which with this type of thesis in mind, or at least thinking about where they are focused on trying to get diverse founders and underrepresented founders in general into the game because it’s not a pipeline issue and they’ve gone on to do quite well as companies.
Vanessa Liu: I looked at business building as a way of solving problems and for me I felt like my time at SAP was a way to see what was out there. What are the different technologies that are being used and how can you at scale solve some of the biggest problems out there?
I’ve been interested in longevity and aging for a very long time, ever since I was in college, and I just felt like that was an area that was being overlooked. I just didn’t see enough investment in the space. I felt like there was so much focus on youth right before the pandemic.
There is so much focus on millennials and Gen Zs and products and services targeted at them, and I’m like looking but wealth is concentrated a lot in people who are older, and there is going to be a very significant wealth transfer moment with baby boomers now aging.
When I was leaving SAP I knew that I wanted to go back to business building, and I wanted to focus on building a series of businesses around the longevity space. So, I decided that it was time for me to leave SAP. I had tested the idea of starting something new in the longevity and aging space with several different persons.
They said, “You should just go out and do this and we would back you.” When I left, I had several ideas to launch with and one of them is what I’m doing right now. So, ever since April last year, I’ve been working and creating an HR tech B2B software platform to help companies hold onto their experienced workforce with flexible arrangements and where knowledge transfer is facilitated.
So, that’s what I’ve been building, and I think that there are so many people now who have been working at companies for a very long time. They are now thinking about leaving the workforce or at least dialing it down. We are going to see a very significant retirement cliff and I’m looking to build software that could really help them hold onto this knowledge with these employees and also help these employees think about, “How do you keep on remaining purposeful and productive for a much longer period of time?”
Vanessa Liu: I definitely have a roster of ideas and some of them are more healthcare focused. Some of them are more caregiving focused. I picked this one to start off with because when it comes to the future of work, that time is now, and I also feel like I want to think about this demographic, not as a demographic that is frail.
I want to think about this demographic as one that has so much wisdom to provide and to give. If we can create software platforms so that their wisdom can be passed on, that would have a tremendous effect on society.
So, that was what I decided to start off with. I wanted to have something that my parents, for instance, could use. They happened to be owners of their own businesses. My father runs his own law firm and my mother runs a jewelry manufacturing and crystallization business and she has like 30 people working with her. But they are in their eighties now and they are able to keep on working because they have created that for themselves.
I think the portion of the population that has an employer, they are not business owners, and how it is going to be very important to help companies think about “How do you keep this workforce agile?” If you see what is going on in Japan, you have people who are working well into their nineties and not because they have to, even though a lot of people might have to from a financial point of view, but because they want to.
It gives you connectivity on a human level and I think that is important. I think work is where I’ve derived a lot of satisfaction. It is the same with my parents. So, that was why I decided that the work-front was an area to start off with.
Vanessa Liu: I think for me, I was building something where I knew that basically in a few years’ time, I was going to be in a demographic where I can experience ageism. I started hearing stories from people who were 5 to 10 years older than I am, and they were experiencing rampant ageism.
There was this one woman I know who has been an incredible marketer and a Chief Digital Officer, and she was looking for her next gig around the pandemic and she said, “You know, this one company told me that they were looking for somebody with more energy!”
She is one of the most energetic people that I knew, and I just started thinking that I need to work on this because women and people of color are disproportionately affected. If I don’t work on this, there is going to be even more discrimination at that level and for some people. So, I just feel like this is an opportunity to create something that I would want to see in the workplace for myself.
Vanessa Liu: I only had an idea, but what I did was that I put it down on paper and I started testing this with a couple of CEOs and CHROs that I happened to know, just to get their feedback.
I was really lucky in that very soon I realized I had two companies who were willing to take a bet on me, and they basically said, “If you were to build this platform, we would find ways of using it.” So, that was what gave me conviction to go out and build this.
Vanessa Liu: The first thing I did was that I raised money because I just felt in order to do this well, I can bootstrap it, but I won’t be able to get the best type of engineers on board, and I knew that in order to get this out there, we needed to spend like at least half a million to a million dollars.
It made me realize that I should just go out and get funding. So, I started talking to a couple of potential investors I had been talking to, and they said, “We’ll back you”, which is great. I was just very lucky. I was able to raise my pre-seed round in a very short period of time.
Once that happened or I should say simultaneously, I brought on a co-founder. One of my work best friends from SAP was the SVP of HR and she was our Chief Diversity and Inclusion Officer and Head of Global Health and Wellness. She knows the HR buyer inside and out and, I couldn’t imagine anybody I would want to build this business with. So, that’s how I brought Judith on board.
After we got the money and we just started thinking, “Well, we have to build a team. We have to think about the prototype” – I had to put down on paper what I thought that the actual product should look like and then set about going out there and finding engineers to work with and also people on the product and design side so that we can get into an iteration of “Let’s build the product.”
So, that took a few months and here we are about to launch our MVP very soon because we have a couple of our products now.
Vanessa Liu: We haven’t gone out there and we are still pre-revenue, but we have tested the pricing with our potential design customers to say, “Hey, what would you pay in this type of situation for this type of business?” Having had a portfolio of 87 companies at SAP whereby maybe about 40% of them were HR tech focused, I knew what pricing benchmarks look like and what companies would think about.
So, from there, I just decided, “Okay, I think that this could be a usage-based model and we can test what that could look like. “Also, just to see what the ROI is, we just ask companies themselves, “What would you pay for this? What are the analog types of services you are paying for? How much you are paying there?”
So, you get a sense of what is out there. The companies that I’ve worked with, I’ve always said when it comes to pricing, especially with enterprise that you have to price it based on the value that you are getting.
So, if you are holding onto an experienced worker, losing an experienced worker can cost upwards on average $350,000 for a company in terms of lost productivity, lost innovation, lost relationships. If I say, “Hey, I’m just going to take a fraction of that. You will be able to hold onto these people for longer, and for that knowledge transfer, I’m going to charge you X dollars for it. What do you think?” They will say yes.
That’s how you gauge it and that’s how you talk to customers about it. I’ve always said that the moment you know your pricing is right is when your customer grumbles a bit, complains a bit, but still accepts.
Vanessa Liu: I think so much of this is about going out there and doing the benchmarking and thinking about your value and knowing what pain point you are solving for. I’ve seen so many companies build beautiful products but I’m always like, “Well, it is beautiful. What problem are you solving for your customers?”
If you don’t understand that, well then you can’t price it adequately. So, I always tell the companies I work with, you have to understand what it is that you are solving for, and to ask what their alternatives are for solving that. Then you could see basically, on the back of that, how much value you are probably providing.
The value-based side is so important. I know so many companies that go in and they are like, I’m pricing this at $500 a month. I’m like, “Why? That sounds so low. Is that all you are going to charge an enterprise? Just based on that?”
They are like, “Yeah, because we don’t want it to be too low.” I’m like, “How are you gauging this at all? I think you have to go out there and really understand your customers.” So, I think that talking to potential customers, understanding where they are coming from, there is nothing compared to getting that in real life.
Vanessa Liu: I think you have to know your customer well again, and you have to know what it is that they are willing, to do. I think domain expertise in B2B is so important. A lot of people think that B2B is unsexy because it is just not what people think about.
But I find it extremely exciting if you are solving a company’s very big problem for them. What is keeping them up at night. That is exciting. You could get six figure deals, and seven figure deals like that. That I think, is very exciting, but the sales cycle is much longer as a result.
Vanessa Liu: So, what we are trying to do is to make sure that we can have something repeatable. The way that we see it is that in the beginning, we are lucky. We have four design partners that we are going to work with. So, we are going to see how it works in the wild within their companies. They are very forgiving. They know us and they would forgive us if we make mistakes.
Once we get that product down and we think there is something there, then we would just turn on and be like, “Can we sell this to other customers? Can we make them user studies and use cases so that we could take it to other customers?” That is what we are going to do so we could have something repeatable.
Vanessa Liu: The great thing is that you have so many tools out there to capture this data. How are customers using your piece of software? Where are people dropping off? Where are they spending a lot of time? You could use sites like “Keep” for instance, and they can, provide you the telemetry in terms of what is going on. So, I think it is very important to have those feedback loops in place.
We are going to be very data driven in terms of what it is that we are going to try to do. If we see people getting stuck, we are going to try to understand why they are stuck so that we can unpack that and remove the friction. So much of being able to hone software is understanding where the friction points are, like when you pick up and use Airbnb right now, it is so easy to use, but that comes from years of testing, of using it with consumers who are able to say, “Oh this was really hard for me to find” So, this is what I’m going to do to change.
Vanessa Liu: That is something that we are thinking about right now. Like, how do you work with your early customers where they might have a lot of requests? There is always going to be a question of, “Is this a request that is only going to be idiosyncratic for this organization, or is this going to be one that many other customers are going to ask for?”
Making that difference to say, “Hey, this is something we can do. That other bit we don’t see other customers using it. We might put that farther down on the roadmap”, but being able to be very open with them about it to say, “Does this work? What else do you need to see?”
Making sure that you have that open dialogue for feedback and where they are part of the design process, which is super exciting, but also where they can get first dibs on a particular product feature.
Vanessa Liu: Internally, a lot of the goal setting comes from my co-founder, and we basically said, “For the first year I know what it is like to get to the next challenge.” I’m like, “We have got to get at least 10 customers using this and to see how this goes.” So, that is really important.
In terms of investors, they provide feedback on the milestones that we provide and I’m really lucky in terms of having very understanding investors who are just like, “Yes, you know what it is that you are doing because you are an experienced founder. At least this is your third go around. So, you know what it is that you need to go after.”
Vanessa Liu: So, the way that I see it, I know I’ll be able to take the business to a certain place before I need to raise again. I want to be able to have specific milestones in place so that I can then scale the team. It is always about “What do I need to do? What do I need to use the money for?”
It is to scale. In this MVP stage the whole idea is to make sure that we are able to launch a product out there that people will really love and will want to use. I know that it will be time to raise again when I’m like, “I just can’t manage all of the sales by myself.”
Right now, our team is pretty much product and engineers. In the moment when that happens, I’ll gladly try to hire salespeople because we are bringing revenue. “Can we step that up?” That is what we are going to try to move towards and think about the milestones.
I usually tell companies for seed, that means you have a product launched. You also have some type of traction with customers, some type of early signs of product market fit. When you get to an A, you have to have product market fit there and you have to have some type of repeatable sales process so that you can just scale that out. So, that is what I’m thinking of in terms of the tranches.
Vanessa Liu: When it comes to product market fit, it is about your ability to put out something that is just not great, but something people are desperate to use. They’re just like, “Oh, I cannot imagine life without this.” That’s when you know you have product market fit, and I think it’s so important. I feel like the term hasn’t been around for all that long, but it is a concept that you think of.
You think of Sarah Blakely and when she first manufactured Spanx. It was like literally, “Let me just take some pantyhose and just snip it on the bottom and that gives me shape, right?” It is not like a very sophisticated product, but women were like, “I can’t live without this.”
That is when you know you have something that people really want and that is the “Aha!” moment that you are trying to look for. Do you have something that companies are like, “Oh, this is so good in comparison to how we would do it, beforehand.”
I think that is so key to look at.
Vanessa Liu: Having the repeatable sales process, I think here founder led sales can get you very far. I know that right now that is where we are in the business. I can call upon, I’m lucky, probably more than a handful of companies to say, “Hey, will you try my product?” They’ll probably say yes.
But, the true test will be approaching companies I’ve never met before to say, “Would you try this?”, to see if they love it. If you can have somebody sell the business who is not the charismatic founder, that I think is when you know you have something that is truly repeatable. I always look at how the companies have gotten their early customers.
Vanessa Liu: I think so. Also, where you’re just like, “Hey, I can see this. This has happened before. I can see this go again and again with different customers that are in the same place”.
Vanessa Liu: The way that I always think about it is in terms of the stage. Of course I think if we are thinking about the stage earliest on getting the first checks into the business is usually the toughest, for a first time founder because you are asking people to take a bet on you, you don’t have a track record just yet.
I always think about trying to go for as supportive of an investor base as possible. That is the first and foremost thing that I look for. Then I start thinking, “How much do I need? How many investors do I actually want to handle?” Because you don’t want to have so many investors to speak to because that is a lot of work.
A lot of investor management would waste your time. So, I think it’s important to get that right. So, if you are raising a million it makes sense to me to be like, “Hey, I’m going to cap the investors at, say ten so the average that the check size is a hundred thousand.”
Now not many people can write a hundred thousand dollar check, so that’s just something to keep in mind. But if you are asking for that type of money, you probably have at least something to prove to go out there with.
So, that is how I would think about it. I also think about getting investors on board at the get-go, who can help you with the business.
I happen to have incredible angels who are in areas that I know I’m not great at. I’m not a technical co-founder. I’m not somebody who has been an engineer before, but I have somebody who is the CEO of a company, but he has essentially been their head of product.
I have another investor on board who is a CTO of a very large e-commerce business. I have somebody also on board who is an incredible tech recruiter. So, they are able to help me because angels in the beginning want to help you because that is part of the fun of being in a business in the first place. So, thinking through strategic angels to bring on board is very important.
Vanessa Liu: I actually think about putting together a board of advisors from the get-go. That is what I did, because these are people who can help you in areas like somebody who could help you think about the product and the engineering side.
Somebody who could help you think about sales and marketing if you need that. Somebody who could help you think about customers, and that is another area. I think it is so important to have that from the get-go. It’s a very tough way of starting a business without having those types of people in your back pocket whom you can lean on for relationships.
Vanessa Liu: I don’t offer people advisory roles from the get-go. I need to get to know them. It has to be people that you trust. It has to be people that you think could really add value. That is so important.
Also asking other founders, “Have they worked with these people before? What is their reputation?” It’s so important. I work with people that I tend to know, or I know other people who have worked with them. It is a very tight knit type of venting that I have.
Vanessa Liu: For me, whenever you’re building a product it is always about getting the constant feedback, getting people out there, because it is my third go around, I knew what it was that I needed to do, like stack the chips, have advisors from the beginning and to work with them.
I think though, no matter what, when you are putting together a new team and you are thinking about the dynamics, you just never know. When you are working with people for the first time, on the engineering or the design side, are they going to fit with you culturally and what’s going to happen there?
So, giving yourself the leeway to work with people because you won’t really know how you gel until you start working with them and planning for that because sometimes the first people that you get on board, sometimes they are great, and they are the right hires and sometimes they’re not. So, just to be aware of that is very important.
Vanessa Liu: I think for me it is always about the people. I want to make sure that we are cultivating a culture of excellence and that we have a team that is just working so well together. So, I think in the beginning my big challenges have been on the people front, like are we getting the right hires?
It always it takes you longer than anticipated. So, that has been the challenge. I certainly have seen over the last year; it has gotten a little bit easier now that the tech market at least is a little bit more founder friendly because so many people were just going to the large fangs and being very well compensated.
There is now a lot of talent available, but it is still hard to find, and so being able to navigate that has certainly been our number one challenge.
Vanessa Liu: For us, it is actually having the people to help you vet. So, that’s what I lean upon our advisors for. “Can you suss these people out? Can you just give me a perspective of what you think about them?”
Vanessa Liu: Not this go around, thank goodness because I feel like everything I’ve seen, I’m like, “I’ve been there, done that.” So, nothing really fazes me.
Vanessa Liu: Nothing that I didn’t expect, but nothing feels better than showing your product to a customer for the first time when they say, “Wow, this is great! I want to use it.”
It’s a high that I get every single time. You want to keep getting that high, right? You never want to get desensitized to that high.
Vanessa Liu: I lean upon so many other founders, like for this part of the journey and like I’m a part of a couple of women’s groups and women founder groups and they are great because sometimes it feels really lonely and I think like being in then and realizing that you are not alone and there is support out there is very important.
There are like a lot of opportunity to get help from large corporates. They have great programs, so that is just something to think about as well.
I happen to be part of a group called Gold House Futures. So, Gold House is an Asian focused community, and they also are just bringing founders on board. It has been great just to meet other Asian founders.
I’m also part of this group called Dreamers and Doers where we are in the beginning that you might be like, “I need somebody to look at copy right away.” You could just ping the group and be like, “Hey, do you know anybody? You can do this. So much of that is great and so having that is wonderful.” So, that is like what we have now.
Vanessa Liu: Just being flexible. I knew that going in already, but just being open to flex and think about what to launch with is very important. I just saw that here, like what we are building is to help companies hold on to employees with flexible arrangements that to facilitate knowledge transfer at the beginning we just thought, “Oh, let’s go in with the flexible arrangement side.”
But now as you know, economy has turned to cost cutting and layoffs. The knowledge transfer piece is actually even more important.
So, remaining nimble, is something really important. I just feel like being able to have that going in to be like, “What if, what are the black swan events that could change your business?” Being very clear about that is important.
Vanessa Liu: I think it is more just being aware of what is going on, being aware of the trends, talking to customers, and having that be something constant. To get that input is really important.
Vanessa Liu: I just think that it is so important to follow something that you have a deep conviction on, and so if you have something that you can’t let go of, go for it. So many people say, “I’m so risk averse”, and I always say, “Well, what is the downside?”
The downside is that you’ll just default to do something you’ve done before, but if you have an idea that you are very passionate about, why not give it a try? It is one of the most exhilarating journeys you can ever have in your Lifetime.
Vanessa Liu: I think you covered a lot.
Vanessa Liu: Thank you so much!